By editorial board • 

All politics aside, Trump deserves impeachment

President Donald Trump should be impeached, paving the way for a trial by the U.S. Senate.

He asked Ukranian President Volodymyr Zelensky in July to investigate political rival Joe Biden in exchange for $400 million in military aid. Congress voted to allocate the money months earlier, but it was withheld by the administration.

Soliciting campaign aid from a foreign government violates the Federal Election Act of 1971. Withholding public funds for personal political advantage also opens the president to criminal charges of bribery and misappropriation.

Trump involved personal attorney Rudy Guilliani and Attorney General William Barr in the Ukraine shakedown, indicating a criminal level of conspiracy.

Then there’s the cover-up.

Administration officials ordered information about the conversation removed from a classified server. Instead, it was placed in a fortified “code word” server reserved for critical national security issues.

House Democrats hesitated from impeachment earlier, feeling the Republican-controlled Senate would never convict. Democrats feared it would only serve to bolster the president’s base and destroy their own 2020 election chances. The best way to rid the country of Trump, they reasoned, was to oust him at the polls.

A lot of things Trump has said and done would have carried devastating consequences to other presidents under ordinary circumstances.

Yet many with the power to respond let the natural political process move forward. While that may be politically wise, Trump has forced the issue.

On Thursday, Trump doubled down, calling on China to investigate his potential opponent. We wonder what offer he plans to make China in return.

Impeachment is no longer about political consequences. Trump flouts the law and proclaims himself above it while openly wishing he could charge whistleblowers and critics with treason. That makes it a moral, ethical and constitutional imperative.

That’s not to say politics isn’t at play. It always is at least to some degree in the U.S. Congress. But the public needs to put aside its own polarizing beliefs and be clear in this message: seeking foreign intervention in our elections for personal political gain is unacceptable — especially from a sitting president.

Impeachment could actually help Trump be re-elected. But after evading the consequences of numerous transgressions, this president must be called to account regardless.

Andrew Johnson was impeached in 1868 for firing his secretary of war without Senate approval. Bill Clinton was impeached in 1998 because he lied under oath about an affair. Does Trump truly have to stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot someone before enough is finally enough?

His supporters insist he’s innocent until proven guilty. Indeed, and even though he’s already wallowed in self-incrimination, the process now in motion will see to it the charges are properly adjudicated.

Whether he’s removed or not, history will judge him harshly. It will judge even more harshly those who saw the danger and chose silence out of political expediency.

There’s a legal maxim, “Let justice be done though the heavens fall.” That sums up this crossroads in history. It’s time to stand for what’s right.

Comments

Mike

The 400 mil quid pro quo seems obvious but it is not proven at this time. Trump says is interested in stopping corruption. He could have said help with corruption. But he wanted a specific favor, look into the Biden's. Biden being the front runner of Dems at the moment. If he'd stayed general with corruption. Okay. But being specific about a potential political opponent says to me he is asking for a favor from a foreign country to dig dirt on his political opponent. That is enough. The 400 mil just hangs there waiting.

RobsNewsRegister

So potential corruption is OK but investigating potential corruption impeachable? The first primary isn't until Feb 2020 for goodness sake. Why does Biden have an immunity that neither Clinton (FBI) nor Trump (Russia) had in 2016?

Ukraine: https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/463307-solomon-these-once-secret-memos-cast-doubt-on-joe-bidens-ukraine-story
China: https://nypost.com/2018/03/15/inside-the-shady-private-equity-firm-run-by-kerry-and-bidens-kids/

Mike

Rob. The distraction is amazing to see. I see you care about Biden. Why? Is it because he is a contender against Trump. If you and I were competing for a job. And I called a foreign country and didn't ask for general information but I asked them to dig dirt on you, when it is against the law for me to ask a foreign county to interfere in our job contest I would be in the wrong. You can keep saying "what about Joe" Hey what about Joe. But if may guess if you were not trying to change the subject you might want to look at what Trump asked another country, now two countries to do. But scene it is about distraction - hey don't look at what is in front of you. look at what joe might have done years ago.

OregonBorn

Perhaps.

But any objectivity is not to be found here.

We all know The NewsRegister is a mouthpiece for the extreme left.

I'll form my own opinion, from unbiased data. I won't rely yet another liberal opinion article from the NR.

The same folks who wrote an article about dust specks in someone's attic being a possible portal into another dimension, may not be the most accurate source of information.

Just sayin'.

Bill B

The lack of balance in editorials leads me to believe that this all about increasing subscriptions. Are you really OK with this type of editorializing Jeb? Just last week you commented on CNN and Fox being biased.

madmacs

The Biden story being pushed by trumpco is laughable. Even a cursory search shows that pressuring the Ukraine to get rid of this prosecutor was A) A bipartisan US Effort B) Done out in the open as a matter of US foreign policy and C) Supported by the IMF, EU and others. In addition the timeline presented to support the notion that Biden was trying to keep his son from being investigated doesn't make any sense unless Biden had a time Machine. Frankly, believing anything this administration puts forth at this juncture is extremely gullible at best. How many times has trump lied while in office? Last check was around 12,000! Believe trump even a hundred times shame on him, past that shame on you.

Mike

okay I can't spell. sorry. The NR is a cherished local resource. And it even allows us to rant at one another here in comments.

Bob

Lyin' Joe is the name of the politician in question it's his infamous moniker; do a search and see why. A son with no knowledge of an industry offered a job of $50K a month on Daddy's coattails? Pressuring prosecutors to drop cases for political gain? You don't see anything worth investigating here if you were running against this person? To remove him as a candidate, possibly. To reveal to the American public the character of this man? More than possible. But you can't assume you know or you're right; it has to be true and provable and the facts do not speak well for Lyin' Joe.

RobsNewsRegister

I'm sure the Biden stuff was thoroughly investigated by the media in the past (my eyes are rolling). Giuliani has gathered a wealth of documentation. John Solomon has more.

John Solomon actually has the files showing the Burisma case in Ukraine was open when the prosecutor was fired. Why not at least take a look?

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/436816-joe-bidens-2020-ukrainian-nightmare-a-closed-probe-is-revived

Reporter Starla Pointer

OregonBorn, I'm flattered that you remember a story I wrote in October 2009 about a Sheridan couple who believed their house was haunted. I don't believe in ghosts myself, but they believed passionately. I love learning about other people's interests, don't you? People are fascinating. Won't this world be boring if everyone thought the same? -- Reporter Starla Pointer

gregtompkins

Hey Trump promised to “drain the swamp” and boy is he ever doing it in spectacular fashion. The swamp is angry. Did you see one of their members had a heart attack? They’re so angry they’re foaming at the mouth and having heart attacks. I expect Biden to keel over soon next.

Jim

It is time for a new editorial leader. This could be the most laughable far left piece I’ve ever seen in your paper. There are a lot of conservative people that still live in this community and I’m one. I don’t think anybody is guilty till it’s proven in a court of law. I haven’t seen one thing that doesn’t make me think President Trump isn’t still cleaning the swamp. The Liberals are running scared and will go to any length to discredit Trump. Who ever wrote this article must have written it in their crying closet holding their security blanket.

RobsNewsRegister

Greg> I have to admit- my BP at the doctor's office today was sky high too. The paralysis of our executive branch, for three years now, is ticking me off. The swamp (both Democrats and Republicans) is fighting back hard so they keep getting their influence money. The last straw was when CNN published details of Trump's conversation with PRCs Xi. They are playing with fire (literally) - how can a Russian/Chinese leader speak frankly to an American president during a crisis now?

We may rue the day all of these horrendous precedents were set in the name of getting the bad orange man. While our chief executive is paralyzed with the clown-show in Washington take a look at what Xi was doing (not for feign of heart though). I counted four new missile types including the longest range ICBM in the world (DF-41), a new SLBM (JL-2), and the sleek looking hypersonic missile (DF-17 : they beat us to the punch on this technology). We'd best never get into another 1962 like situation.

Highlights: China celebrates 70th anniversary with biggest ever military parade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmp51YN-7wc

gregtompkins

Robs, while we are fighting the president China is preparing to annihilate us. I really think Bay Area would be an attractive target - the epicenter of leftism as well as our tech economy.

RobsNewsRegister

Crud - I re-watched the earlier video and noticed the hypersonic glide vehicle (DF-17) wasn't in it. See link below to see it. The JL-2 actually had never been paraded before either but I think the new submarine launched ballistic missile flew under the radar with all of the other flashy stuff being introduced. It says something when a SLBM doesn't get noticed! It could only pepper the western United States with multiple independent re-entry vehicle nuclear warheads - no big.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMUbpMTfZtE

treefarmer


Hey N/R editorial staff……..much appreciate the presentation of the facts (and indisputable logic) surrounding this ever-metastasizing scandal. “Mouthpiece for the left!” asserts one of your critics. Looks to me like you are standing up for GENUINE conservative values, and the best interest of our imperiled nation. Putting country ahead of ideology or tribal politics is surely the epitome of patriotism. I keep hoping that sooner or later honorable Republicans and sincerely conservative citizens will come to the conclusion that they are NOT being well-represented, and their loyalty is being abused to their own detriment. (and mine too) Many thanks for your service to the truth.

Mike

I like to listen in when robs, oregon, greg, jim talk among themselves. They are my way of following an very different view of the world. I do worry about what seems to be a focus on the dear leader who can do no wrong and all the evil doers trying to bring the dear leader down. And it is interesting to see how the distraction works. Just as I'm sure they appreciate hearing treefarmer, me, and a few others talk about what is happening.

RobsNewsRegister

Mike > I didn't vote for president Trump in 2016 but it is clear he's treated differently than anyone prior. Even this so-called impeachment is unprecedented. There hasn't been the traditional formal vote setting up due-process rules so the minority defense to can call witnesses and subpoena material. It is how Marxists handle legal inquires, not democratic republics.

Finch

Hunter Biden was paid $83000/mo and knew nothing about what he was being paid for. Joe threatened to withhold a billion and bragged about it. The media has been talking impeachment nonstop since November 2016. Rob, Jim and Greg I proudly stand with you and our President and the rest of you can keep denying facts.

Jim

The biggest threat we have to our own state is the lunatic liberal that is our governor. She has over turned major issues we have voted on as the voting public but I haven’t seen any outrage from the far left liberals on any of these discussions. Our own state is in deep trouble from all of the lunacy spewing out of her mouth. If anybody in the country needs to be impeached it’s her yet all you Lefties set in silence about her low down double dealings. It’s the usual double standard. Politics need to change from both sides. We can no longer have all the free cheese programs and expect the American worker to continue to pay these exorbitant taxes that are being imposed. Common sense has left the building on both sides of the fence.

gregtompkins

Oh come on Mike you are being totally disingenuous if you really believe that! Trump came from totally outside and gave the Democrats a shellacking. This vile leftism crept in far before Trump was even considering running. I remember even as a student in the early 90’s at George Fox starting to learn of this radical leftism bent on destroying the US and hearing professors and guest speakers praise globalism. It seems like this really started getting bad after Gore lost the election and these globalists have been really pissed ever since.

gregtompkins

Here’s what we are trying to model here in “progressive” Oregon !

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-jackson-california-poverty-20180114-story.html

Jeb Bladine

Jim,

Lest you think this comment is personally defensive – I don’t participate in newspaper editorial board decisions. But I do believe its expressions of opinions are moderate compared to the extremism I see from far-left and far-right partisans these days.

Impeachment actually is the opposite of declaring guilt without a trial. Impeachment constitutes a charge for which a federal official can be placed on trial by the U.S. Senate. With a Republican-controlled Senate, it’s hard to imagine circumstances that would produce a guilty vote.

In a national poll this week, 45 percent of respondents expressed belief that President Trump should be impeached, while 38 percent said “No” and 17 percent didn’t know. So, among respondents with an opinion, 54 percent supported impeachment.

Much as I totally respect your right to be among that 38 percent, I hope you would extend that same courtesy to the 45 percenters.

The very same editorial board, by the way, has published an extended series of commentaries highly critical of actions by the Oregon governor. I assume you would believe that board is very politically perceptive and responsible in that regard.

The newspaper’s editorial page is headed each week by a simple phrase that we coined years ago: “Democracy thrives when honest opinion provokes public debate.” Thanks for being part of the public debate.

Jim

Jeb on the Governor I was trying to let the extreme left on these forums know that they have one of the biggest problems in the country in their own back yard. The NewsRegister has done a great job exposing Kate Brown for what she is. Some other things not so much. Your article from Scott Schreiber on gun control was not followed up by someone from the other side of the table. In my opinion any honest newspaper reports both sides of a hot topic like gun control. As far as polls go I’m not a believer. Hillary was supposed to beat Trump in a landslide according to the polls in the last election. Polls can be sent to a certain demographic to fit the pollsters needs. Your paper has always done a great job reporting till President Trump came along and now I personally think you lean a little to the left. I didn’t take a poll it’s just my opinion.

RobsNewsRegister

-The justice department already ruled there was no violation of the Federal Election Act of 1971, and from the Ukraine transcript you can see there was no quid-pro-quo.
-The server was setup after the first to presidential conversations were leaked to the public in 2017. I count five leaked as of 10/4/2019
- According to former attorney general Michael Mukasey, Trump's China comments were "bad form" but didn't violate law. Even if you disagree with the former AG, the mere fact its not a crystal clear violation tells us something.

I think we can all, regardless of personal political persuasion, agree that impeachment of a sitting president this near an election is an extreme measure. I think we can also agree Trump is the loosest president with words in the history of our country who quite openly brainstorms; but why are these words consistently interpreted in the worst possible manner? Do we really want to put the country through such a divisive process without voluminous and undeniable evidence of a 'high crime and misdemeanor'?

Mike

Robs. Do you remember the outrage, I'm sure you do, about the last president? Do you remember images of him being hanged? Do you remember how he was accused of being a Muslim and not born in America. And if he would have asked an other country to investigate Trump when Trump was running he would have be requesting another county dig dirt on a political opponent. Asking for dirt on a political opponent the Federal Election Commission would say it is against the law. If it was the last president you would likely also say it was not right. Trump is a master of his own mistakes. He seems to relish creating turmoil and he does not seem to have a sense of consequences.

Mike

Greg. I know you need to use labels like 'vile leftism'. You do it a lot. Trump won by less than 80,000 votes out of millions, 3 mil less that old Mrs. Lock-her-up. For the time being the Electoral College allows the rural minority and the rich to control and maintain power. And the rich, your evil globalists are in power here whether you want to admit it or not. I hear you when you say your college education at George Fox helped you understand the world. I know other G. Fox alums who would be shocked at what you have gotten from your education.

RobsNewsRegister

>And if he would have asked an other country to investigate Trump when Trump was running he would have be requesting another county dig dirt on a political opponent.

What in the world do you think the Obama administration was doing in Ukraine in 2016? This is what the AG a John Durham are investigating. A Ukrainian court ruled as much. Counter-intelligence probes report to the president of the United States. It was a counter intelligence probe that spawned the so called Russia Investigation during the election in 2016. I know you all don't like Donald Trump but can't you see the utter hypocrisy? This isn't Republican vs. Democrat either. This is Washington DC Political Caste system vs. Outsider.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/u-s-attorney-john-durham-looking-into-ukrainian-involvement-in-2016-election

Mike

Robs. Why is Durham investigating? The Ukrainian connection as the source of the Russia involvement is a great way to distract from the fact that Russia Did Interfere With Our Election. That is not in dispute except by those who do not believe in the good will and patriotism of our intelligence agencies. It is not a hoax and investigating the investigators will prove it.

RobsNewsRegister

Durham is investigating because there may have been an abuse of government power that interfered with the majority of this administration's term. He is a well known investigator that has been used by both Democratic and Republican administrations in the past for this type of work (see link). Some may be in legal jeopardy. For instance, why was John Brennen's CIA investigating a domestic election?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Durham_(lawyer)

gregtompkins

Get your editorial board to write an op ed about the negatives of illegal immigration (high housing costs , strain on the welfare state, more DUII hit and run drivers.) Get OFIR or someone from from angel families to write. Put your money where mouth is and offer a balance. Prove to us that you’re not a far left rag.

Mike

Robs. A second thought. I get your point about Inside DC & the American Oligarchs and Outsider. Unfortunately, I don't agree Trump is an outsider. He is a known insider (maybe a billionaire insider). Trouble I have is if folks who support him think that Biden did the same thing, why does Trump's behavior get a pass? Is it the argument "He did it, so I get to do it." How does someone else doing wrong justify me doing wrong? I struggle to follow the logic.

RobsNewsRegister

Mike - You can the transcript of the Ukraine call to judge the president. No reason to go by a hearsay complaint when you can get to the source document. There is no quid-pro-quo. I don't support everything the president does but what choice am I being given? I'm an Independent but I can see the blatant double standard; especially in much of the media.

For instance, there wasn't an "obstruction of justice" outrage when Hillary Clinton had subpoenaed e-mails, cell phones, and computer hard drives destroyed yet I'm supposed to believe Donald Trump, who actually waived constitutional rights (attorney-client and executive-privilege) during the Russia investigation, obstructed justice?

treefarmer


It is important to read and ponder opinions from around the spectrum, just so I especially appreciate voices of reason interspersed in with all the hollow spin and denial. I recently cited something from a Leonard Pitts column, this might be an appropriate place to mention some of his additional observations about human behavior. He cites studies by behavioral scientists that show humans are pre-disposed to double-down on false beliefs when they are presented with evidence that proves those beliefs wrong. I can’t think of any stronger evidence of wrong-doing than standing in front of cameras on the lawn of the White House and inviting YET ANOTHER adversary to break the law and corrupt our election system. (Ask yourself how you feel about Iran attempting to hack the Republicans as they are doing now.) So if that is indisputable, and it is, the only way to defend/support the wrong-doer is to find some way to make his diabolical deeds acceptable. Dear leader is indeed the master of deception and distraction and as I read the comments of the faithful I am also reminded of the statement, “I could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose a vote.” That rings sadly true because he has plunged a dagger through the heart of our Constitution and still his base looks away and genuflects while our Republican representatives hide in the bushes quivering in fear of toxic tweets. For the health and stability of our democratic republic, I continue to hope for a Nixonian awakening. That horrifying spectacle last week during a press avail could not have been more revealing. We are being ruled by a mentally unstable person who needs intensive treatment. His unrestrained abuse of power becomes more dangerous by the day.



treefarmer


Mike – I always appreciate your perspectives and was very interested to read your comment about G. Fox alums. I do not know anyone who was educated there but had always considered it an honorable conservative institution. Good to read your observation that our resident N/R troll is NOT representative of that school's values.

Finch

Treefarmer - you appear to sit on your own throne of the high and mighty and the way you continually go on and on with your wordy reprimands may be considered by some to be mentally unstable yourself. You know what they say about pointing fingers and what points back.

Mike

Robs. I've read the transcript. He asks a foreign country for a favor. A specific favor. Investigate Biden and his son. He didn't say please route out corruption. He mentioned a name. The name of a potential political opponent in the coming election. Asking for a foreign nation to dig dirt on your political opponent is according is a crime according to the Federal Election commission. He had 400 mil dangling during the phone call. We've held up your money doesn't have be said it is understood, now do me a favor, looks at these Biden people. I don't think Trump is dumb or crazy. I think he is smart in many ways. But just asking a foreign nation to interfere in our election is beyond okay for me. That someone else is a craft criminal does not justify using the Presidency to ask for a foreign nation to be involved in our election in any way shape or form.

gregtompkins

treefarmer and finch I think the point I was trying to get at was that even in the 93-97 timeframe there was vile leftism even at an otherwise conservative college. I first started hearing about globalism and how it was positively spun. And even in those days I railed against “made in China,” the illegals and unfair tech industry competition. But the globalist / one world government types have been at if a long time. I know it’s all Trump’s fault even in the 90’s it was Trump’s fault! And nice of you treefarmer to stoop so low to call me unwarranted names (troll) how inclusive of you !

RobsNewsRegister

> I've read the transcript. He asks a foreign country for a favor. A specific favor. Investigate Biden and his son

Mike - I've seen chopped up excerpts of the transcript making it look that way but it's NOT true. See full text below. The favor is in regards to the 2016 election and the Russia Hoax special council. They are looking into how it all started because "our country has been through a lot". The ONLY person's name in this section part of the conversation is a Mr. Robert Mueller. Sorry for the all cap text but the emphasis is needed as reading through something like this in detail is important. Much of the reporting has been extraordinarily sloppy.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/25/politics/donald-trump-ukraine-transcript-call/index.html

"I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation. I think you're surrounding yourself with some of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, it's very important that you do it if that's possible."

gregtompkins

I wonder what it would have been like if during Bill Clinton impeachment we had social media and opinion channels then? And what our country would have been like during 9/11 with Facebook?

gregtompkins

Do you think any of this is connected to Uranium 1, George Soros and Kate Brown with that standoff in Eastern Oregon a few years back?

treefarmer


Hey Finch –such creative assertions! As a (retired) mental health professional I do wonder how you arrived at your diagnosis, as well as why you continue to read my posts when they obviously unsettle and offend you so deeply. Do you enjoy the indignation? Relish the opportunity for insults? (There’s a diagnosis for that too but no need to go into it here.) Along with everyone who reads this forum, I am well aware that you hate my opinions, my facts, and my logic………but for some reason you need to keep telling me so. And if that makes you feel better, it is fine with me.


gregtompkins – Please note I didn’t call anyone out by name and there was no need for you to own the descriptor. However, you do have a habit of flame-throwing, should we think of you as a fire-fighter?

gregtompkins

Hey treefarmer as a retired mental health professional you would probably like this one: do a google for Joseph Shadow Clark in the wmsimonsen blog you’ll probably see my name mentioned. That was one of my first experiences with leftism. I had friends who had a now now attitude toward all of that.

Finch

Bingo! "My facts, my logic". That's the trouble. You disregard most all that oppose YOUR views. Even when others present many, many other points of view or 'facts' you still dismiss them.

Finch

Greg - George Soros and his money try to control everything from state to federal elections. Apparently his daughter is married to Adam Schiff. And if that isn't completely accurate then it's someone related to Schiff.

gregtompkins

Finch, I read something that Suzanne Bonamicis husband is a left wing nut judge who disproportionately rules in favor of the illegals. Makes sense she favors the illegals then her left wing husband sets them free. I think their end game is need more voters to support their one world socialist , globalist utopian dream government. Sounds more like a dystopian nightmare though to me !

Mike

Robs. This is fun. Here is an excerpt from page 4 Trump." The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me." Never mind that the prosecutor who was removed was for failing to prosecute anyone. He was corrupt. The Ukrainians were trying to get rid of him for months. The pressure to get rid of him came from the EU, the IMF, and the US and it was not connected to someone who was in a US political election cycle.

Mike

greg and Finch you guys are just having fun, right? Just repeating stuff from Breitbart to see if you can get some lefty to bite. Glad you are having fun. It is nice to see Breitbart right here in our local monologs.

gregtompkins

@ Mike I don’t even know what Breitbart is? I guess something else I have to look up (again.)

Mudstump

Trump extorted a favor in exchange for nearly 400 million in aid too the Ukraine. If you believe Biden and his son are the most crooked people on the planet, it doesn't change the fact that Trump and his cohorts broke the law....period end of story.

RobsNewsRegister

Mike> Note President Zelenskyy brought up Giuliani first. Look how passive the president's language is - "so whatever you can do ... would be great", "so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me.". Where's the threat? Giuliani brought back a stack of what he says is evidence of corruption and the president has to ignore it because it's Biden? He may have chosen not to ignore what Giuliani is telling him but that's a choice, not a crime.

Everyone> In the end it doesn't matter what any of us think. The Intelligence inspector general had the Department of Justice review the transcript and they ruled no crime was committed. Case closed. In the end, they are the ones that make the determination.

https://time.com/5685980/justice-department-trump-ukraine-campaign-finance/

gregtompkins

Funny story and this is no joke. One day I met Giuliani by total accident. I was having lunch at elephant delicatessen in Portland by Nordstrom he was running for something I don’t even remember what. Anyway probably a publicity stunt Elephant because of Republicans anyway all of a sudden entourage cameras and media swarmed through that place he shook my hand and just left I was just dumbfounded like what just happened !?? !

Mike

Robs. Why does there need to be a threat? The Quid pro quo, do this or else, or do this and I will give you whatever. As you know now the diplomats were aware of Rudy visits, Rudy had been in the mix before the call, so Z was aware of him. Rudy T's personal lawyer, personal hireling. Okay so DOJ says 'no crime'. And you are good with that. For me soliciting a foreign nation to help to dig dirt on a political opponent considering the current political rhetoric is not fulling the oath of office of the President. Trumps response of name calling, suggesting there is a coup which further undermines our America, are not helpful to bring Americans together as a nation.
The auto workers are on strike, they gave up a lot in 2008-9 when the auto companies needed government help to survive. They would like get something back. Trump says he is an outsider, says he is for the little guy, the worker, then why isn't he out there with the workers? Let the impeach do its thing. He knows the Senate has got is ass covered.
I think the impeachment inquiry process is a unfortunate but necessary distraction. All of the information will ooze out. And I am sure if the House does impeach the Senate will hold a quick acquittal. But hopefully we will know more when it comes time to vote.

Mike

Robs. Passive voice? The most powerful guy in the world is talking to a new president (who was a comedian playing a president of TV before being elected), a new president of a little weak country fighting a low grade war against Russia and a little county very dependent on America for defense and support. The 400 mill is hanging there. I may not understand the nuance of tone of voice and what it means as well as you, but just the incredible power differential seems to me to make the subtleties of tone voice open to interpretation.

Mike

greg. I thought you would know Brietbart. Considering your comments here in NR you will like what you find. You will find a home. Comment there. Almost everyone will agree with you. All your labels for your perceived evil doers will be appreciated. You should enjoy singing in the choir.

gregtompkins

Mike that’s too far off in the other direction. Like NR CNN and MSNBC is to the left that and Fox is to the right. What are Center / slight right of center sources these days? Not opinion channels and opinion newspapers like this one is !!

Finch

Mike- I think we can all agree that there appear to be double standards. Comey announced that Hillary was guilty of numerous things relating to her emails and private server and destruction of it but decided against prosecuting her. Biden did have knowledge of the situation with the Ukrainian people and his son's hiring and there are tapes and pictures of it during his presidency but nobody on the left seems to care. It's extremely frustrating that laws are not equal for all. Yes, I've stated before that Trump was not my first choice and he does tend to stick his foot in his mouth over and over out of frustration because the left and the press have literally been talking impeachment (also on tape) since November of 2016. Come hell or high water they have had only one mission since he was elected. The American people are sick to death of this craziness. Let the American people decide in 2020 and quit wasting our money on this when it can be better spent elsewhere.

Mike

greg. The Hill https://thehill.com/ is center right looking at politics. Like everywhere they have opinion and news. The opinion tends to be center right, but not always. Considering how you use labels to characterize what you do not agree with I thought you would like an extreme view of the world.

gregtompkins

Mike thanks for that recommendation. Internationally I like Economist. I’ve had a subscription to that one before but it gets pricey. The Multnomah Library has RedDigital reader that gives me that too but the app is super flakey and crashes a lot. I really enjoy my audible.com with audio for WSJ NYTimes and WaPo and my scribd subscription includes NYTimes printed digital. You should check out scribd you might like it.

RobsNewsRegister

When CNN went hard left after Trump we lost the middle. I used to view MSNBC (left), CNN (mid), and Fox (right) to get perspective on issues but then we lost the middle. My wife likes BBC - they often have a different take than the American media and report things not covered on this side of the pond.

sbagwell

Finch:
Adam Schiff has no relationship whatsoever with George Soros, by marriage or otherwise. Also, to say Soros is trying to control elections and government through campaign contributions is ridiculous.
The Koch brothers have been contributing 10 times as much to causes and candidates on the right, and they are joined by a whole host of other billionaire contributors on the right end of the spectrum, like the notorious Sheldon Adelson. Do well-heeled conservative campaign funders also bother you, or are you only troubled by those who choose to back moderate or liberal alternatives?

Steve

Finch

Steve - George Soros money is behind much of what goes on. I know someone personally in California who had his money out there trying to defeat her. She still won. Say what you want but it's true.

treefarmer


I have, on more than one occasion, stated my conviction that we are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts. When I saw the post at issue (“APPARENTLY” she says, “…….and if that isn’t completely accurate then it’s…….”) This in not the first time there has been floating of false assertions on this forum and I’m sure it will not be the last. (Yet another absurd fact-free allegation about George Soros appeared even as I was typing this post.)

This is an extremely dangerous time for America, facts and truth have been replaced by lies and malicious calculated misinformation. In totalitarian regimes the tyrant defines HIS truth and demands that his subjects conform to his lies. We have seen a trend toward this chilling anti-American agenda as Trump has created an echo chamber for mass dissemination of false information. So far the faithful are not actually COMPELLED to conform, but unwavering agreement is held out as a loyalty test, as evidence of patriotism, and if fellow citizens reject the lies, as dear leader often decrees with venom and conviction, then we – your friends and neighbors - are the ENEMY. Could there be a more sinister way to further divide and conquer our nation than this? (Note to those who disagree with my opinions: I will never believe we are enemies.)

As I posted earlier in this thread, I am eternally grateful to the N/R for your clear statements of fact, for your courage to call out reality, and your willingness to endure the incoming in service to the truth. The Trump "administration" has systematically eroded the guardrails of democracy, and the free press is coming to our rescue – just as our Founders intended.

gregtompkins

treefarmer I think the only thing that has changed is opinion channels and opinion newspapers becoming more so. And social media fanning the flames. I can only imagine what social media would have been like during Bill Clinton years!

RobsNewsRegister

I'm no expert on George Soros but ran across this John Solomon article the other day and thought some may find it interesting. I don't really have a dog in this fight though since the Libertarian in me thinks as long as it is legal; anyone can support any political issue they so choose at any time - its their money.

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/435906-us-embassy-pressed-ukraine-to-drop-probe-of-george-soros-group-during-2016

treefarmer


I have to admit that I couldn’t fully understand all the implications and intrigue in your Hill article, Rob - but it seemed to lean on information from Lutsenko. I did some research on him and there are differing accounts of his credibility and role in the current Ukraine scandal. In one article Lutsenko is quoted: “Hunter Biden cannot be responsible for violations of the management of Burisma that took place two years before his arrival,” Looks like he may have had a different spin for Mr. Solomon?

Also happened onto this from the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/01/ukraine-opens-investigation-into-yuriy-lutsenko-lawyer-who-gave-giuliani-biden-information-trump-call

Lutsenko aside, I note that Mr. Solomon concludes his piece with “cogent questions," this one among them: “Did Soros’s role as a major political funder have any impact?” According to the author, no conclusions were drawn.

George Soros has been mercilessly demonized because he supports liberal causes. He also supports many charities. He is a rich and generous old guy who puts his money where his passion is. It is sickening to read false inflammatory accusations ripped from the right-wing propaganda machine, here or anywhere else. Surely someone should take the time to find a reputable source before regurgitating foul talking points?

(And p.s. I do have genuine respect for Libertarian perspectives, I am probably closer to Libertarian than to D or R.)


RobsNewsRegister

Big surprise (my eyes are rolling) - the so called hearsay whistleblower had a 'professional tie' with one of the 2020 democratic candidates. I would love to know which one - might explain more of this. Also, John Solomon just reported that an investigation into the company Hunter Biden sat on the board of was ALREADY restarted before the Trump phone call (actually - if I heard right it started in Feb.) That would explain why Volker noted six times in his testimony there was no quid-pro-quo in one fashion or another. This is going to blow up in the Swamp's face.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/whistleblower-had-professional-tie-to-2020-democratic-candidate
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/congress/volkers-secret-testimony-appears-to-quash-quid-pro-quo-theory

treefarmer


Rob –Your “Examiner” articles exhibit a strong right-bias but for the sake of argument, let’s buy their view that the one who revealed this scandal is -oh God forbid! - a Dem. What the hell difference does it make who blew this whistle? By your logic a person’s political beliefs negates the truth he/she brought to light even when all the elements cited prove true and accurate, and are corroborated by others. Fact is, when that call ended the loyal co-conspirators ramped into hyper-drive to get the transcript hidden away in a top secret server ASAP. THEY understood the implications even if you refuse to. I realize that some will continue to embrace the “perfect call” fantasy laid out by the stable genius. The one with the self-declared “great and unmatched wisdom” demands that HIS convoluted version of truth be accepted and defended without question. As mentioned earlier in this thread, that is chapter and verse from the authoritarian’s playbook. It is nothing less than a tragedy that so many good people are being deceived and used by this sick and dangerous man. I will never understand what make him even slightly worthy of your loyalty. I fervently hope we can get him removed from power before he disgraces and dishonors us (and undermines our national security) any further.

RobsNewsRegister

Treefarmer - I don't care where news comes from as long as its credible. For instance, CNN does some really good reporting on the Chinese military. I don't believe I can trust any one source anymore. Don't forget, it was NBC that famously sat on the Weinstein story. Also - why do I need a hearsay whistleblower complaint when I can see the transcript myself?

As far as classified server. Presidential conversations are highly privilege (executive) conversations. The president doesn't even have to give the IC, intelligence community, access to them. With an as of now unprecedented five leaks to the media of the president's conversations with other world leaders it may unfortunately come to that.

Mike

robs. I agree with you about needing multiple sources and voices on anything. I go WaPo, Fox, NYT, Brietbart, The Hill, Daily Caller, OPB, back and forth. Enough to make a person dizzy. And I share your concern that any president who has their finger on the nuclear trigger might cut out our national security organizations, which includes our military from his/her discussions with foreign powers. A great situation for an authoritarian country like China, Cuba, and Russia, not so traffic for America.

Chris Chenoweth

Some facts on Soros:

George Soros as given more money to reshape world governments including the United States than virtually anyone else. Most, but not all, of this is done through the Open Society Foundation where he deposited over $18 BILLION to accomplish his Open Society objectives:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/17/business/george-soros-open-society-foundations.html?mtrref=www.google.com&gwh=4BE19FB65D0B96DEA5540D6D5C328E81&gwt=pay .

To compare, the Kochs Network, that includes them and like minded people, spent $889 mil in 2016 and $400 mil in 2012. For anyone to try to paint this man as man who is just generous an gives to his passions either is an intentional obfuscation or is based on ignorance. He stands in firm opposition to traditional American values, nation states and borders in general. He pushed for the mass migrations into Europe, is fighting Brexit, and it was tentacles of the Open Society Foundation that pushed the caravans from South America into the US. He is not about funding his passions, he is about reshaping the entire world into a new order.

Here is probably the best consolidated history I could find on the man. ALMOST every statement is sourced with citations provided. Some of the sources are right, some left and some center.

https://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individuals/george-soros/

Finch

Chris - He is a very scary man. Years ago Glenn Beck rolled out yards and yards of butcher paper identifying hundreds of organizations where his money goes. It was unbelievable. I will no doubt be chastised as a conspiracy theorist but I've also heard and read about these things.

Mike

Chris. Here is a quote about Soros from that NYT article you site.

"After the fall of the Berlin Wall, in 1989, he poured hundreds of millions of dollars into the former Soviet-bloc countries to promote civil society and liberal democracy. It was a one-man Marshall Plan for Eastern Europe, a private initiative without historical precedent. It was also a gamble that a part of the world that had mostly known tyranny would embrace ideas like government accountability and ethnic tolerance."

Is that what you mean about Soros not wanting borders?

Chris Chenoweth

Mike: No I am not basing it off anything in the New York Times article, you need to read up on the "Open Society" he advocates. You also need to look through the second link I provide and it's sourcing. I am not going to break it all down here. I am just telling you that what he believes is that Nation States and borders are part of the problem with our society. In my view, his is a dangerous ideology that is antithetical to American cultural ideals. What makes him worse is he has massive funds at his disposal. As an example his organization has given at least $50mil and I have read some estimates pegging it at well over $100mil to the ACLU (its hard to peg it down because he donates to local chapters of the ACLU as well as to the national organization. If you have watched who the ACLU represents, and who they don't, well enough said. Here was an interesting quote from the NY Times Article for those who do not believe Soros, through his foundation, is funding many of the social justice organizations that are sprouting up on the left: “Because there is no part of the world that they have not been. Their footprint is deeper, wider and more impactful than any other social justice foundation in the world.” The Koch brothers are a drop in the bucket on the influence scale comparative to Soros which makes this equivocation very curious indeed.

Chris Chenoweth

I am saddened by what I read in these comments.

"Orange man bad - Former VP Biden Good"
"President Trump can do no wrong - Biden is a crook"
"I won't waste time on Fox or right wing media - CNN, The Times, et al are great"
"Mainstream media is the problem - Fox is awesome"
"Koch Brothers Evil - Soros kindly old man giving of his heart"
"Soros evil scary man - Koch Brothers defenders of freedom"

For what it's worth I believe the media is the reason we are here and opeds like this are proof of where the problem lies. This oped was lazily researched, rushed to print to get this exact response, and encourages an exaggerated narrative pushed too much in one side of the media. The fact that their are "sides" should say it all. I appreciate the fact that this was done as an oped, at least the NR didn't try to cloak this as factual. I long for the days when the News was presented as factual information and tried not to arrive at conclusions. When Americans knew they had a neutral arbiter of the facts.

treefarmer


Chris Chenoweth – FACTS you say? I couldn’t access the NYT site (it is behind their pay-wall) but I did read the “Discover the Networks” piece you linked in your post. (The effort to keep an open mind cost me a chunk of time I will never get back.) Following that unpleasant journey into a conspiracy rabbit hole, and after trying to check those “citations” you seem to believe lends credibility to the uncredited author, I got 404 after 404 which is very revealing. At the torturous end of the article I noticed that “Discover the Networks is a project of the David Horowitz Freedom Center. Okay, now there is a frame of reference. Horowitz was a neocon who is famous for such bloodcurdling quotes as: “Barack Obama is a communist and a traitor,” “Black Lives Matter is a racist organization,” and “Democratic calls to impeach Trump are treason.” But after reading that long piece of vile propaganda I did feel compelled to provide some objective information about Mr. Soros.

Here is video of a recent investigative report from the BBC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWyzdknqz6E

And a companion news article:
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-49584157

And finally a tidy timeline of the diabolical demonization process:
https://www.fastcompany.com/90247335/a-timeline-of-george-soros-conspiracy-theories

Your characterizations of my post might well be applied to your own minimization of the Koch cabal. I stand by my comment. (But hey – you got an “AMEN” from kindred spirit Finch so there’s that.)





RobsNewsRegister

I was shocked. The NYT actually published an op-ed about what the Biden's were doing in Ukraine and China.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/opinion/what-hunter-biden-did-was-legal-and-thats-the-problem.html

Finch

In spite of what you think treefarmer I enjoy listening to and learning from differing opinions. There are people on these forums I don't always agree with and they with me but it's nothing personal. I also lean moderate to right. The problem I have is with the extreme left and what they are doing to this country.

That being said, you act like the judge and jury of all opinions. You said you are retired from the mental health profession. I have no idea in what capacity nor do I care but I sure hope you did not deal with people like you do on here because you are so rude and condescending and just frankly not nice.

These are tough times for our country and our children and this constant fighting is not good for anyone. These people were not elected to spend their time and our money constantly fighting and accomplishing nothing. They continue to set a really bad example and it's not just in these past three years.

Mike

Cris. You mean "In 1978, the ACLU took a controversial stand for free speech by defending a neo-Nazi group that wanted to march through the Chicago suburb of Skokie , where many Holocaust survivors lived. The notoriety of the case caused some ACLU members to resign, but to many others the case has come to represent the ACLU's unwavering commitment to principle." is that the ACLU you mean?

Chris Chenoweth

@treefarmer - Your types are too predictable. Attack the messenger and never deal with the meat of the message. This is what "sides" in the media have done to us. It is sad.

I appreciate and understand the criticism of the broken links. I have not gone through those links in sometime. Did you happen to notice where the broken ones end up? Again the sourcing is across the spectrum to include even the Times, the Atlantic and The New Yorker.


The BBC story starts by building a straw-man and then effectively tears it down. I never claimed he was part of a big conspiracy. I said he has a different world view which is antithetical to what our country has stood for, go study the underlying premises of "The Open Society Foundations" and understand them. As to the BBC I am appalled at what has become the state of our media and the inability of otherwise intelligent people to fail to critically evaluate the media. Essentially I can sum down the arguments of the BBC piece as "Open Society told us they aren't bad, so they are not and Open Society said they did not do something, so they didn't" then they went out to debunk some of the most unbelievable claims made by wing nuts on both sides. That was propaganda at it's finest. It created the illusion of making an attempt at investigating Soros and instead just proved the wingnuts are wingnuts and never really explored Soros, the Open Society Foundation nor who they fund. There is no investigative component that is worth a plug nickel in those pieces. It never addressed the reality that they are one of the largest funders of "social justice movements" across the world.

Chris Chenoweth

@ Mike: The ACLU of 1978 is a far cry different than the ACLU of 2019.

RobsNewsRegister

Chris - you are so right about the ACLU - I couldn't believe they didn't raise holy heck when the FBI broke into Trump's attorney's office and took EVERYTHING. The FBI even tried to dupe the judge into letting them go through EVERYTHING but he pushed back. The ACLU finally was embarrassed into complaining a little but sheesh. I guess attorney-client privilege doesn't exist anymore if your a Republican to the ACLU.

Mike

chris. How true, none of us are as we were in 1978. ACLU in 2009 is still doing this "The American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit in federal district court Monday on behalf of two families from Dove World Outreach Center whose children were not allowed to wear “Islam is of the Devil” T-shirts to Alachua County public schools." Suing the School district for not allowing free speech.

And in 2012 “The ACLU of Connecticut disagrees very strongly with Seth’s views on same-sex marriage and gay rights, but that has no bearing on his right to express those views,” Staub said. “We’re very glad that the Wolcott Public Schools recognizes this, as well.”

Yes I know the ACLU is disliked. They have been in the middle of many issues various groups do not like. They get hit from both extremes.

Chris Chenoweth

@ Mike - Cherry picking cases does not give a clear view of what the organization is doing. As to 1978, I was 8, and a whole lot more naive and left on the political scale than I am now. I remember at 9 or 10 in a mock election pushing for a man named Carter. :)

treefarmer


Wow Finch – Are you familiar with the concept pf hypocrisy? You accused me, a person you know nothing about, of being judgmental and then proceeded to post abusive conclusions about my character and my professional skills, all in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE. And to gild the lily you further assert that I am RUDE after you left this message for me in another forum:

“STICK IT!” you “suggested.” Crude AND rude………quite the achievement!

How embarrassing for you that your hatred of my opinions (and your aversion to facts) drives you to keep “sharing” such venom. Surely there must be a more productive and positive use of your time, but as I said before, if publishing your animosity makes you feel better, go for it. Our interactions probably amuse the whole forum.

Mike

chris. True about cherry picking, but it does make generalizations not as strong. By the same token talking about where the money comes from, who gives it, is not the same as discussing the issues. Who gave money, look how much, is a way to create an enemy and evil doer. Both extremes are guilty of using that technique.

gregtompkins

When did this vile leftism become a thing? Was it after they lost the election to Bush that they started becoming so hate filled or did it start up earlier?

RobsNewsRegister

Greg - people only see political sides anymore. With someone they don't like they see things like a prosecutor, someone they do, a defense attorney. You see this in the press every single day. Hint - look for interjected adjectives and adverbs as a tip off for the bias.

My problem with this 'impeachment to nowhere' nonsense is that it weakens the president's hand during pivotal international negotiations. The United States was looking for much tougher intellectual property right protections with the Chinese but had to back off at the last minute due to this craziness in the swamp. Like him or not, in the end he his negotiating for us all.

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/11/769469085/trump-announces-phase-one-of-trade-deal-with-china

gregtompkins

Robs I remember my left wing friends during Bush years had so much vitriol toward WalMart Comcast and Made in China Inc. Fast forward to today they lovingly embrace WalMart and Comcast because those corporates support Queen Kate. You never hear any criticism of Made in China any more, and why don’t these social justice types seem to care about what Communist China is doing to the Uighar Muslims? I think the left only has one thing in mind to end the USA and usher in globalism.

RobsNewsRegister

Yeah - It was less than twenty years ago that the ANTIFA types were protesting against globalization in Washington DC. I guess they are good with it now. Its a crazy world we live in.

http://newsmine.org/content.php?ol=security/criminalizing-dissent/dc-police-wrongfully-arrested-400-imf-protest.txt

RobsNewsRegister

It looks like what's going on at CNN may be some type of personal vendetta between the head and CNN and Trump that goes way back. Kinda feel sorry for folks that work there. Covering Trump 24/7 would get boring really fast. It would explain he is what they nearly always seem to be talking about when I turn that channel on though.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/project-veritass-alleged-cnn-whistleblower-says-network-is-pumping-out-propaganda

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