Dundee family falls to murder-suicide

It is a terrible tragedy, why would a person believe this horrific act can be the only solution. The emotional toll on the surviving families is heartbreaking, just heartbreaking. Harming the innocent never resolves anything, it resolves absolutely nothing.

Judge Cal Tichenor Shame on you. You were using information presented to you when you already knew the history of this man. Very unstable. SHAME ON YOU. Time to leave the bench. You got sloppy!

There is, And only is one person 100% no if,ands, or buts responsible for this. That is: Randall Engels!
He made the decision to end three innocent lives, He betrayed everything a husband,father, or man stands for.

I whole heartedly agree our justice system needs to take a looooong hard look at these type of situations, And ALWAYS error on the side of safety. This stuff happens way too much.

My heart goes out to all the family and friends of everyone involved.

Here is a person that did all the right things. She went to the court, petitioned for relief. She told the judge her concerns for her and her family. She did a legal petition and hand wrote a letter to the judge.
From what I understand from the local paper and the Portland TV news. The Judge on the case stated the evidence just was not there to issue a restraining order. "Denied � danger not established."
He could have issued a restraining order. And let some other court overrule him. The Family would still been alive.
Or, he could have said, I am the Judge and ordered a cooling off period. The Judge is the law and could have at least separated the family.

I hate to inform a lot of people here of this. But many crimes of this sort take place even with no contact orders in place.

It is kind of like this false perception that an order will always keep a person safe, similar I suppose to having a gun on your person, but in truth, the other person has the ailment of surprise and that usually decides the conclusion of the situation.


Troy Prouty*

When this kind of tragedy happens, there's a part of each of us that is responsible...responsible to our neighbor, friends, family, to listen for signs and offer support. This is huge in our community. Suicide and murder/suicide such as with the Engels has such a far reaching affect one cannot even imagine. It is the haunting that will affect us today and the tomorrows. I especially give a heartfelt hug and prayers to all family members and to the children who knew Bailey and Jackson. Their young hearts should not be experiencing such a huge tragedy. A piece of their childhoods has been taken from them.

The judicial system had a huge role and I concur, shame on Judge Tichnor. More follow-up should have been done, taken more seriously.

that being said, even with a RO in place, tragedy could have occured. There are no guarantees for any of us.
my sympathies to all.

I think sometimes people forget that the court of law isn't about what might happen.

Obvioulsy orders are not criminal (only when violated) they are civil by law.

If you are concerned enough about safety, it requires proof that you are in a position of not being safe and have justifiable cause to establish the order (usually police being called with a report) things of that nature.

Is the system perfect? No.

But at the same time you need to take into account several things. There are people that abuse the system in order to get back at their spouse. You would think Oregon would figure that out in history with a conviction of murder from testimony of a spouse that never happened. A woman dropping a baby off a bridge because the father (ignored her) etc..etc.. People do crazy things. That is life. You can't always prevent it, no matter how much you want to. Does God?

I don't want the court to assume that every complaint must be accurate without proof - I think the implications of that is far too great for so many. I can tell you for every thousdand orders filed probably less than one tenth of one percent have a fatal ending (yet I don't have stat to back that) and many of these claims are emotion responses which probably nothing would have happened.

This doesn't mean I don't feel for the situation, but it does mean that if a prosecuition is seeking a conviction in a criminal trial I would expect something more than because I think he did the crime.

For me to accept the fact the person actually committed it, I would need something a little more, and in this case, I would require proof as well.

I'm not a Tichenor fan, but at the same time, I hear all these comments without ever looking at what may have been presented.

Troy Prouty*

Just so you all know, judges have certain guidelines to follow. They are NOT God and cannot do whatever they want. I am sure the judge made his ruling according to the guidelines of the law he has to uphold. The guy who shot his family is the one responsible NOT the judge! Geez people, haven't you watched even one episode of Law&Order. If it makes you feel better to blame the judge then, do what you have to do but, it's not right and anyone who is thinking clearly would agree.

I am just posting without reading what other posters have written. So someone may have already said this .. If someone wants to kill someone regardless if there is something like a restraining/protection order theyre going to do it anyhow. So very sad

I couldn't agree with you more angie97128!

This is obviously a very tragic event but keep in mind, while ripping apart the the judge, a piece of paper does not stop a bullet. This was obviously a very sick man.

I agree with Angie97128, if someone has made the decision to take their family's lives and their own, they are not going to worry about consequences for breaking a restrainingin order, it is not the judge's fault. Plus, for some reason, they were all back together at that house, maybe trying to at least have a cordial relationship for the kids' sake - how incredibly tragic, what a horrific crime, I doubt that man will be able to rest in peace anytime soon, this really makes me sick, i don't agree with suicide but if you think you are so sick, so depressed that you would rather die, at least don't take others with you. One last act of selfishness.

Thank you for your comment JB. Yes it is the friends of the children who now are left with the loss and grieving process that will go on for a very long time. My son was good friends with Jackson. Jackson was the type of kid that accepted other for who they were, always tried to help and loved to entertain others. What a loss our children are going through, they would have grown up with quite a remarkable young man. Yes a restraining order would have helped this family. A RO is designed to act like a deterrent, promising negative consequences like jail time, fines and probation. Amy and the kids would not have been at that house if one was in place. Do your home work folks, its Judge Carroll J. Tichenor (she goes by Cal, hmmmmm that's telling). My son named off kids names from school today and asked if they were dead or alive...thanks Carroll.

Come on, really, Dealing with the Fallout? You really don't know that *HIS* Honorable Carroll J. Tichenor (Cal), former JAG and Yamhill County Deputy District Attorney would have signed the restraining order if a) there was abuse in the past 180 days; or b) the petition was more comprehensive? Maybe a restraining order would have been a deterrent - to a person in a normal frame of mind. When you're dealing with someone who was obviously distraught enough to kill his own children, a restraining order doesn't trump a bullet like a rock in Rock-Paper-Scissors. The killer might have hunted his children down to kill them later. When there were more people around. It's a tragedy, brought on by a murderer, not Judge Tichenor, who is one of the kindest, fairest men on the bench that I know of - especially when there are kids involved.

First off I would like to say my heart goes out to the family and friends of Amy, Bailey and Jackson. I did not know them personally, but our paths crossed many times where I used to work.

I am not going to bash the judge because I believe made a decision based on the law at that time and as others have stated, I believe Randall would have ignored any RO because he apparently was not concerned with any consequences of his actions.

Unfortunately, quite possibly the only four people who knew how they all ended up at the scene of this horrendous crime are the victims and their killer. I am assuming Randall talked Amy into a holiday get together with his kids and had planned it all out before they arrived. We will never know if Amy would have refused the meeting if she had obtained the RO, but might have only delayed Randall's plan for a later date.

I totally agree that this type of crime is just happening too often nowadays! What is so wrong with people that they feel the need to not only extinguish their life, but to take innocent women and children too???? My Heart is really hurting over this one being so close to home!

This wasn't a restraining order request. I re-read the article above, and the document she was requesting was NOT a restraining order. It was a motion for temporary custody due to immediate danger. There are much stricter requirements to grant such a motion.